Mississippi Happenings

Welcome to this week's edition of Mississippi Happenings podcast.

My name is David Oles and here with me each week is my friend and my co-host, Jim Newman.

Jim, how are you doing buddy?

I'm doing better.

Any better, I'd be twins.

yes, I understand.

Our guest today is Cliff Johnson.

Cliff is a director of the MacArthur Justice Center at the University of Mississippi
School of Law.

He's a graduate of Mississippi College and Columbia University School of Law.

He has practiced law in Mississippi for 33 years.

Cliff prosecuted large healthcare providers while working at the department

of justice during the Clinton administration, represented thousands of plaintiffs in class
action and whistleblower litigation across the country while in private practice, and has

handled numerous high impact Mississippi civil rights cases as the director of the
MacArthur Justice Center.

Cliff, I admire your dedication and your commitment

It is a pleasure to have you with us.

Great to be here David and Jim.

Appreciate being asked.

Thank you.

Cliff, let's start out and tell us about the MacArthur Justice Center.

Yeah, the MacArthur Justice Center is a national civil rights firm based at Northwestern
Law School in Chicago, operated there for a while as the sole office.

And then ultimately, the MacArthur Justice Center decided to expand into other places,
particularly the South.

So we have offices in addition to our office in Chicago in St.

Louis, uh in New Orleans.

here at the University of Mississippi and in Washington DC, we have our Supreme Court and
Appellate Practice.

And as the name suggests, we are in search of justice, particularly in the criminal legal
system.

And our job here is to, specifically at the University of Mississippi, is to look at the
Mississippi criminal legal system and to bring impact litigation and to pursue advocacy

to...

improve and reform and transform the criminal legal system in Mississippi.

This the most punitive state in America where we battle back and forth with Louisiana to
have the highest rate of incarceration per capita.

A sad distinction, but a reality that with which we deal on a regular basis.

So I think the state's really lucky, frankly, that MacArthur chose University of
Mississippi.

I certainly feel lucky to be here and to have the support of not just MacArthur, but also
the university.

And we've been at it.

I've been at this job now for 11 years and having to have a lot of fun.

It's frustrating as you can imagine, but really good work.

Good.

you get involved in any individual cases?

We do.

So our view, Jim, of impact litigation, or a lot of people see it as just class actions in
federal court.

We think that individual cases, for example, we've represented nearly 75 people who were
sentenced to life without parole as juveniles.

We've represented those individual cases as a way of getting at the larger issue of what
do we do with juvenile justice.

So we do, yeah.

I noticed that the oldest serving

I to say prisoner, but that's what he is.

The oldest serving guy was just put to death, I believe.

Yeah, Jim.

We had sued the state of Mississippi over the conditions on Death Row.

And as part of that settlement, we're given access to the row as much as we wanted to be
there, which was quite often.

We would talk to the guys, sell side, get to know them.

We got to know Richard.

He was always gentleman, a good guy, and who had done a bad thing.

And we, this week, the state of Mississippi, in the name of taxpayers, um executed a
79-year-old man, a military veteran.

and we continue to impose that most serious punishments, oh which I oppose and don't think
is good policy.

This was particularly painful um and unless we change things, there's more executions to
come.

Well, just we're trying to help you on this.

We've got Representative Curry coming up in a week or so about the healthcare issues at
Parchman.

So.

Really important.

Yeah.

think people need to look at what Vitalcore is doing there and across the state and
privatization of these services in prison is an issue that we all look at closely.

sounds like it.

You've had such a career.

ah

This morning, I noticed that the Supreme Court came down, issued a ruling on a case that
essentially gave Trump universal power with his ah memorandums and limited ah courts to

their own jurisdiction.

which I guess means to me that if something comes up that is of nationwide ah importance,
like the citizenship issue.

somebody somewhere has got to be ready to file in every district court in the country.

If we're to have.

Jim to try to get a national class action certified and what you know is no easy lift.

But in response to that, what I will say that we all need to be thinking long and hard
about is this is an unprecedented shift of power to the executive.

our current situation, that's Donald Trump, who knows who it'll be after 2028.

whether Democrat or Republican, it's part of this extraordinary use of power by the
executive.

And this case talks about the power of presidentially appointed Article III district
judges, serious people, to issue universal injunctions, is the legal term of our

nationwide injunctions, go beyond the interests of just the parties before the court.

where there's a clear constitutional issue.

Part of the reason that was so important that judges be able to do that at the district
court level was because some of these violations, whether it's birthright citizenship

where someone could immediately be whisked away, whether it's these mass layoffs that Doge
undertook where people are gonna lose their livelihoods, their homes are gonna become very

much economically insecure.

We needed to have the capacity to move into courts quickly, maintain the status quo,

for long, just long enough for the issue to work its way through the courts.

The opinion that was issued this morning, just an hour or so ago, which I've not had a
chance to study, dramatically limits the power of district courts to maintain the status

quo, to put a hold on things across the board nationally for a larger group of people
while these issues ultimately will be decided by the Supreme Court.

What's gonna happen to lawyers now, to your point, Jim, is that we're going to have to
completely recalibrate how we get these issues up quickly.

And everyone who follows the court understands that getting a constitutional case framed
up for the United States Supreme Court to ultimately rule can take an extraordinary amount

of time.

And it will be interesting to see what lawyers do in response.

We'll have to think at the MacArthur Justice Center and others will have to think about
how we approach this.

But it leaves us in a situation now where Congress, you know, that hasn't shown a
willingness to stand in the way of the executive is out of the picture by and large.

The executive is rolling hot and doing everything it can to expand its power.

And now that we've hamstrung the judiciary.

to check the power of this president.

So this is oh a troubling time.

I'm deeply concerned.

is uh

I won't ask you your opinion of Bovay being appointed, but it seems to me like the deck is
getting stacked and

more and more we are losing our rights and even our rights to have a if that makes any
sense.

ah And the Supreme Court has become, at least in my opinion, uh a very political body.

ah Everything is 6-3.

Well, not everything, but...

The majority of everything is 6-3 along political lines.

I'm to the point that

Whoever is the next president, maybe we need to consider expanding the Supreme Court.

There's got to be some more balance.

The Supreme Court's like the Mississippi legislature.

It's got a super majority and the minority just doesn't count anymore.

Yeah, and you know, I've been thinking about that a lot, Jim, in the context of how long
that majority will be in place.

you know, the Republicans do quite an effective job at appointments, getting their
appointments through.

The Democrats, we seem to struggle as a lifelong Mississippi Democrat, which can be a
tough life at times.

We seem to struggle and not be as oh calculating and effective in getting our

point he's through, we've seen that recently.

And I think that uh everyone, regardless of what your feelings are about the current
administration, needs to be aware that while you might love the executive orders that are

being issued by President Trump today, if you have President AOC or President Gavin Newsom
or President Pete Buttigieg, who has unfettered power and discretion,

that perhaps you will not feel so warm and fuzzy about it.

And I will tell you that even though I would love to see a Democrat get elected in 2028,
I'm not comfortable with those candidates or any other Democratic candidates having that

degree of unfettered authority to rule through executive order.

And so I think Jim, you're 100 % right.

We're dealing with structural challenges, constitutional crises.

And so I think everything has to be on the table as we think about solutions, not so much
to gain partisan advantage, but to bring back that balance of power and to return power to

people, to the citizenry in a way that feels true to American ideals and values, right?

It's supposed to be about we the people, and we're becoming more and more detached from
power.

deeply troubled.

We don't seem to be...

We got we the people part, but we don't have in order to form a more perfect union.

We've got more silos now than we ever have had and more people hating each other than we
ever have in the past.

And it's all political.

Yeah, I see , Jim...

at the law school.

It's interesting.

You know, I attract certain students to my class, which focuses on civil rights, law and
litigation, and people who are passionate about reform, passionate about what they're

going to do with their law degrees.

And one of the things that I'm concerned about is, and I'm going to talk about young
people now that I'm going to move to people maybe who are older than that, more my age,

who maybe have

lost the ability to do some of these things.

But what I see at the law school is our students aren't doing a great job at being able to
sit in a room with someone who disagrees with them, who articulates their position, the

reasons for it, who maybe says something provocative.

And rather than engaging in a productive way, right, people shut down, get angry, go home
and write a strongly worded

social media posts, and they talk about how um impacted they were about this terrible
thing that happened to them.

These are future lawyers, right?

And so I wonder about our younger folks who I'm pro.

I'm not one of these people who's down on younger folks.

I'm inspired by them.

I think there's a lot of incredible energy out there that makes me hopeful.

But I worry about that aspect of it.

Then I think about my own peers, and I see the way that the groups that I'm in

often are not very politically ideologically diverse.

And I wonder whether those muscles that we once had in decent shape around being engaged
with people with whom we disagree have atrophied some as a result of the current climate,

which I think has been exacerbated by President Trump for sure, I will say that I think
he's very much an influence on this.

But I think even on the left, have to take some responsibility as well.

And we have to keep our own house in order as far as our willingness to stick our nose in
there and stay in the room.

So I worry about that.

think that one of the things that I have been encouraged by is the law firms that caved in
to Trump and signed on to do all that pro bono work without knowing what pro bono work it

was going to be.

have had some of their top people resign and leave.

And some of their top clients leave as well because they understand that

If you don't have a spine and stand up for what's right, you will fall for anything or do
anything.

And I want an attorney who represents me to the best of his ability, whether I'm right or
wrong.

I want to be represented to the best of his ability.

Yeah, I mean, this is a time where people are having to make very difficult choices to do
things that may cause them to pay a price, right?

So it's easy to take a position if it costs you nothing.

What we're all about to have to address is the prospect that we're going to have to do
things that cost us money or status or comfort or security.

And I think, Jim, we're at that.

I think we're at a serious enough point in our history.

This is an unprecedented and unusual time where we're all going to be asked to step up.

And I'm proud of those people as well.

At the same time, we've seen the Civil Rights Division at the Department of Justice empty
out.

And I don't blame those people who are being asked to do things that are anathema to them
and being asked to

to take on cases that they just can't in good conscience take on.

And so this attack on institutions, on systems, on structures that have helped our society
operate has uh caused a lot of people to step away because of their philosophical

convictions.

uh And we have those two things happening.

On the one hand, people saying that they're going to

preserve their careers, their law firm, their law practice, their client base.

On the other hand, people who are going to step out into unemployment, step out into
uncertainty so as not to further the administration.

And we're all going to ultimately have to decide which side we're on.

And I think we're there.

needed an attorney and we went to court.

And I don't even recall how it turned out.

was too many years ago and it was probably insignificant, but I thought it was important
to me.

But I was shocked that my attorney was friends with the defense attorney.

And only as I got older did I understand that it's not about personalities.

It's about what the law says and how you interpret it.

And you don't have to be enemies to disagree on what the law actually says.

You can still be friends.

And when I hear you talk about your students, that really bothers me that we've got young
people that cannot talk to each other respectfully and disagree.

because 10 or 20 years from now, they're not gonna be polite people to talk to when they
disagree with you.

Yeah, and I tell you one thing, Jim, to put the onus on us a little bit, I think we as
older folks have to model that behavior.

And so I think we also need to think about the way we uh move in this world and ask
whether we're showing them how to do that well.

I hope that we are.

I like to think that we are.

But I think it's a time when it's difficult.

Families are divided.

Thanksgiving's tough.

in a lot of families right now.

I mean, it's tough on turkeys and it's tough on parents and children, right?

I I have students for whom the thought of going back home to rural Mississippi or Texas or
Georgia or Missouri and sitting at that dinner table with mom and daddy and their aunts

and uncles, or maybe their brothers and sisters, and somebody's gonna say a thing and it's
just gonna be painful to have to listen to it.

I think we see it in our universities, we see it in our workplace, we see it in our friend
groups, right?

We see it in our churches and we see it at our universities where people feel so
passionately about this.

With that in and of itself, it's not such a bad thing, but they feel so passionately.

And in many instances, they are so quick to vilify the people who disagree with them that
it becomes hard to

to engage in meaningful conversation.

One of the things I told my two children who are now 31 and 27, their entire childhood is
please, please don't vilify every person who disagrees with you.

You're gonna miss out on some friendships and you're gonna miss out on some opportunities
for growth if you turn everyone who thinks differently than you do into an enemy.

I think we have to be strong and

committed and resolved to stand up for what we believe in.

At the same time, we can do that without doing violence, emotional or more forbid physical
to people who disagree with us.

It's not just you.

you take at least in my opinion, if you take the under 25 age group, ah maybe not so much
in the major cities, major in Mississippi, ah disagreements are settled with gunfights.

That's the way people choose to have disagreements.

And that's not a solution.

uh

that's a big conversation.

We represent some of those people in the work that we do.

And I think that reality of the hopelessness, the desperation, the structure of our
communities in the way that it doesn't respond to the needs of children and families and

young people.

You know, I don't believe that people are born to be gunfighters and to be violent.

just don't, that's not the way I believe the world works.

So something happens in those situations.

And I think that in this world, in this country where we have this very individualistic
view of your fortunes, your success, your failures, I think we have to have some

conversations about communal responsibility for those

situations where cities and communities are ravaged by violence, right?

Like what, how do we get there?

What's the impact of failing to support working parents and schools and mental health
centers and, you know, access to healthcare and you name it, right?

And when I lived in Sweden for a year, Jim, and it was interesting when I would walk
around some of the cities there, was teaching

the law and history of the American civil rights movement.

was doing lectures at different places on the immigration and integration in Sweden where
they're struggling with that.

And if I saw a homeless person, which was very rare, it was a source of great
embarrassment to my Swedish hosts.

And they saw that not as a failure of that person.

They wouldn't say that dude's a bum, he's a loser, he could be better if he wants, but he
just sorry, as we say in Mississippi.

they would try to explain and address why Sweden as a country or that local community had
failed.

And I think what happens to us, right, if we're driving through Jackson or Memphis or
Meridian or Tupelo or any town and there's somebody on the side of the road, we look at

them and we talk about all the reasons they are, um where they are and how they could just
pull themselves up by their bootstrap.

And we don't have that same sense of corporate responsibility.

So I think about

the truth of what you said, people are solving problems with gunfights and violence and
things are happening that are uh not what we want and things we can't accept.

And I think what the conversation I want to be a part of is a conversation that says what
can we do to change that and what did we do to contribute to that?

And I'm not sure everybody wants to have that conversation.

I don't think many people want to have that conversation, I never forget my father was an
obstetrician gynecologist in Kansas City.

And I don't know what the conversation, how it came up at the dinner table one night.

But I remember my dad saying no mother ever had a baby that she wanted to raise to be
somebody who was worthless to society.

Sure.

That dream of America that...

anybody could become president.

That's such a wide span of middle income to lot of power.

That dream's not out there for 95 % of us or more.

I'm not sure, but anyway.

talk about painful things to see um around a law school is young people who don't believe,
and these are law students uh who have bright futures ahead of them and will likely earn

more than minimum wage and maybe be above middle class, who don't believe they can buy a
house, they can afford to have children.

They can afford to have any of the things or many of the things that their parents and
grandparents had.

That'll break your heart listening to these people say, well, you know, my wife and I, my
fiance and I have run the numbers.

It's $2,000 a month per child for childcare in the city we live in or where we plan to go.

We don't think we can have those things.

And, you know, that's the conversation that so many people are having about, you know, the

whether the American dream is dead and whether and what we can do to give people the hope
that you described.

Where we used to be told you can be anything you want to be.

It's all out there in front of you if you just work hard and do the right things.

And I'm afraid that there's a lot of people who don't believe that at all.

And with good reason.

Let's talk a little bit about what's going on in Mississippi and get your thoughts on
this.

ah The first thing would be what's your thoughts about ah the elimination of the state
income tax?

You know, there's been this conversation, David, about this silver bullet of eliminating
the state income tax and all of sudden Mississippi is going to have the same economy as

Texas or Florida.

They get held out as kind of examples of where these things happen.

And I think that just ignores the reality of the differences in the economies and in the
job opportunities and the industrial oh realities of those states.

Here we are in the poorest state of Mississippi, poorest state in the country.

30 % of our revenue comes from the state income tax.

You're talking about billions of dollars haircut to what we receive over the course of
time, where we have failing schools and struggling communities and this kind of harkening

to trickle down views of the economy where if we put more money in

in people's pockets, rich people's pockets, that everybody benefits.

I've just never seen that to be true.

And so we're dealing with, I think, a move to a regressive system that is going to have a
much more significant impact on people who don't earn as much money, particularly on

people of color, because disproportionately they uh live in poverty in the state of
Mississippi.

So, you I'm like everybody else.

If there's a way to pay less in taxes and not suffer one wit of consequences, right, who
doesn't think that sounds great?

But I think that we all should be concerned about the notion of losing that kind of
revenue in a state that historically has struggled to provide basic services to its

citizens.

David and I were just talking about.

do you think?

We don't have that much time.

uh Jim, I think you had something to say.

about that very issue last night and I told him ah TVA has announced ah I think a 6 %
increase in electric bills that we're going to have.

The gasoline tax goes into effect July 1st, which is going to raise taxes on gasoline.

ah The legislature passed a law that allows at least Lee County.

to add $25 to any court case or $50 if it's a DUI.

And I don't mean to imply that these are the people that are least able to pay.

Some of them are most able to pay.

My house taxes went up last year.

I think the people of Mississippi don't know what's coming down the railroad track.

Kansas...

Kansas saw it and turned it around real darn quick because they went bankrupt.

Yeah, I mean, obviously all of us, you know, want to see Mississippi thrive and do well
and are hoping that that it's all works out.

But I think you're exactly right.

I we have to learn from the experiences of other states and we can't assume that we're
going to have the same outcome as much larger states with much more robust economies.

The other thing when you were talking about that twenty five to fifty dollar increase in
court filings, one of the things I've found

And it was true for me, frankly, until I really got involved in economic justice and
poverty issues as a lawyer.

I was raised in a middle class, suburban, upper middle class, perhaps suburban family, was
the reality of what, particularly the state of Mississippi, 25 or 50 or 100 or $200 means

to a family living week to week, month.

a month.

So many of my law students when we're dealing with debtors prisons issues, for example,
where where people are being put in jail because they can't pay misdemeanor fines and

fees.

And we talk about the amount of payment plans that people can can handle.

You know, if somebody owes $1,000 to two below, right, and you say, your payment plan is
going to be well, I make you pay it all at once, but you have to pay it $250 at a time.

For a lot of people that 250 is devastating, out of reach and means you

you're going to have to not pay the light bill or the water bill or some other obligation.

And a lot of people who are fortunate not to know this don't realize how much 250 or $150
is to a lot of people and a lot of families in Mississippi.

And so I think what I think is going to happen is the people who are going to get hit by
that train coming down the tracks are the people who are most vulnerable, most on the

on the edge who can't afford that increase in gas tax.

They're going to feel it.

um The lack of city and municipal resources, they're going to feel it.

Rate hikes, they're going to feel it in ways that many other folks won't.

um it's just, I don't want to get too far down this theological road, but I just...

I often think when we're talking about matters of poverty and economic justice, I'm just
reminded that we are the most religious state in America, right?

We are people who profess to believe deeply in particularly Christian values.

And so when we adopt these policies and I think don't pay enough attention to the impact
on poor folks.

working folks, folks on the margins.

I find that intersection really interesting and troubling.

I worry about folks and I think this isn't good news.

Yeah, because it just it.

Robey, who's a political analyst, had a great conversation with her and she broke it down
for us.

You know, the very wealthy, yes, they're going to save about $45,000 a year.

Tate Reyes is going to save $45,000 a year.

Good for him.

The average Mississippian will save about $40 a year.

the poorest of the poor, they're going to save four, that's one, two, three, $4.

And then you talk about the gasoline tax going up, that's going to hit them the hardest.

it's just, so I don't see the numbers adding up with the elimination of the state.

income tax.

We've got so many other issues in the state with our public health system, you know, with
not accepting the Medicaid expansion and the federal funds for that.

So I think that's, I think that's horrendous some of the things that we're doing to uh the
underserved in Mississippi.

In your coursework at Ole Miss, do you spend more time on the First and Second Amendment
or on the 14th?

A lot of time on the 14th Amendment, Jim, a lot of equal protection talk for sure.

you know, we because we're a criminal legal system focused, you know, we're dealing on
Eighth Amendment, cruel and unusual punishment.

We're dealing on Sixth Amendment, right?

Council, meaningful counsel for indigent defendants.

We're dealing with equal protection violations, people who get treated differently for
reasons that don't pass constitutional muster.

you know, it leads us to conversations that are not unlike the conversation we've had
about uh the state income tax.

And that is, you know, does our system stand up for, protect, recognize the value of
everyone, the dignity of everyone?

Or are we selective and do we believe that some people's rights or integrity counts less?

And that's big conversation.

um the thing I worry about, Jim, with this new DEI law that's been passed by the state of
Mississippi is how much I can talk about the 14th Amendment anymore if we don't have a

court intervene.

You mentioned the Eighth Amendment and indigence.

not to put you on the spot or anything, but it seems to me that if you were to ask
society, I think the overwhelming majority would say, indigents have rights, but don't

bother me with them.

Yeah, I mean, I think there's this thing that's happening that we ought to pay attention
to.

I think you heard it from the right in this last campaign, which is like, leave me alone.

Let me live my life.

Don't force all this stuff down my throat.

oh Your issues aren't my issues.

And stay out of it.

um, your and, and, and, and then you, and you can't classify me as an evil person if I
don't care about these things.

So that's just kind of run toward this individualism.

Um, while at the same time, right, inviting government into some very delicate aspects of
our lives and very personal aspects of our lives and saying, we're okay with that.

So I think, I think, um, I think that getting back to my notion of, you know, communal
responsibility and what's our role in creating violent or unstable.

neighborhoods is I think we are um seeing in the legislative action here in Mississippi.

this notion that we don't want people talking to us about these things, about the poor,
about race.

We don't want them talking to us about gender identity.

I don't want to talk about national origin and I don't want you talking to my kids about
it.

And I just want to live a life that allows me, if I don't want to deal with any of that,
to avoid it.

And that

I think that sentiment's out there and I think it's oh troubling and I don't think it's
going to move us to becoming the kind of state or the kind of country we want to be

because we have to deal honestly with the challenges and needs and barriers that other
people are dealing with.

You mentioned the churches and Mississippi being part of the Bible Belt.

It's interesting.

ah It seems that, uh and I don't want to get off into Christian nationalists.

That's something for a different day, but it's good.

You and I need to get together on this one.

I love it.

Baptist Sunday School teacher and deacon, I got thoughts.

So anyway, go ahead.

Got it.

And I'm a United Methodist, not a global Methodist, but a United Methodist.

you know, everything's about the 10 commandments.

But we forget about, or we don't want to look at, or they don't, nobody wants to talk
about the Beatitudes.

know, and that's, you know, we talk about the country getting back to Christ.

Well,

Christ is about to Beatitudes.

Yeah, and look, the one thing we know, the one thing I know from having been raised
Southern Baptist, and I'm no longer Southern Baptist and had to leave that behind, but we

know that there are people who are in much more conservative denominations and who are
more conservative politically than I am, who are fine people, who are good people, who are

serious about their faith, and they are devoted people who loved me and helped raise me.

Having said that, having said that, I think that you're right.

I mean, this notion of a Christian ethic that people wanna talk about very publicly and
they wanna talk about it in the context of government, uh then you get all of it.

You don't just get to take uh the Old Testament eye for an eye.

You get the sermon on the mount and you get the when were you naked and

I clothed you, right?

And you get what you did into the least of these you did unto me.

And so I think if we're gonna talk about that, then we gotta talk about all of it.

And um it doesn't mean that we have to agree on everything, right?

We can disagree, and I'm fine with that.

I think we, but we have to deal with all of it.

Red letters and all.

So, and that's a conversation I believe people of goodwill and serious faith can have.

And I can be in the room with those folks who are willing to have that conversation, happy
to do that.

Got it.

what do we do with those who...

ah

are not of the Christian faith.

Look, I I think, you know, I think there's a lot of people who have checked out long ago
or never were part of that, who were very interested in that, in that conversation, right,

about the ethics.

So whether for some of us that comes from a Christian faith or doctrine and for others, it
comes from their, you know, their moral compass that's about through other means.

I think that's a conversation that I don't want to, you know, push religious on anybody's
for sure.

But I think it's a conversation that captures

these larger issues of are we committed to protecting the interests of our neighbors and
friends who struggle, our neighbors and friends who have had bad luck or made even made

bad decisions and who are in bad place.

And whether that comes from a Christian perspective or that comes from a holy secular
perspective, in my mind, that's the conversation.

That's the Medicaid expansion conversation.

That's the

cost of housing conversation, that's the criminal legal system, that's the public safety
conversation.

And we're either committed to the entire community or we're not.

And we need to be honest about it.

if we are committed to the entire community, then we're gonna have to invest money and
time and energy in things and structures and programs that don't exist right now.

And it's gonna be a paradigm shift.

And I'm up for it.

I'm up for the conversation and I'm up for the effort.

I'm with you.

I'm with you there.

Cliff, as we close it down, ah Cliff, any final words ah for us, anything that we can help
you with or anything that you want our viewers uh and our listeners to hear?

Well, you know, I like the fact that this show focuses on Mississippi and Mississippi
happenings.

And I think that as folks who live here and are from here, so many times we get into this
mindset that, we can't have nice things in Mississippi and we settle for things that are

less than.

And I guess what I would say to

to you guys knowing that you care about this place and you're doing this podcast because
you care about this place is that we can have nice things.

We can do right.

uh We can do better.

And we just have to expect that of ourselves and one another.

We have to demand that.

And we have to work on that with other people.

For those of us who are on the left of these issues, there aren't enough of us to do this
alone.

We're gonna have to do, there are a lot of us and there more of us than people think.

And let me be clear about that.

We are a significant percentage of this population, but we have to have the capacity to be
strong and clear in our beliefs and in our commitments, our convictions.

while at the same time being able to engage with people who disagree with us on on some
things.

And I want to reiterate one thing I said and that in my view of how we get there in
Mississippi is I think we have to embrace the reality that we don't have to agree on

everything with somebody to be able to work with them or alongside them or to invite them
into our tent, our community, right?

I have friends with whom I have enjoyed great, you know, trips, vacations, parties, canoe
trips, and I don't agree with them on a lot of things.

And I get frustrated with them and I argue with them and I like them and I like them.

I do like them.

And I think we have to hold on to our capacity not to give in.

It's not about meeting in some mushy middle.

It's about holding strong to our convictions.

and fighting for them and being willing to do that with people and being open to the work
of changing people's minds and having our own minds changed.

And I think that in Mississippi, uh there are a lot of good people here and we just can't
settle, y'all.

We can't settle.

We can have nice things in Mississippi.

I'm convinced of it.

I see it.

I see it happening.

So anyway, I just, wanna

want to be hopeful and I want to be optimistic.

I am hopeful and optimistic.

And I think that these conversations that we're having, although they address really
serious, dire issues, doesn't mean that we can't do it with optimism and hope.

I think that fuels us in a way that doing it out of fear and hate will eat us up and we'll
run out of gas.

I just thank you.

Thank you so much.

The writer of Bart Twain, ah I've forgotten his name, but he said, it's never wrong to do
the right thing.

Right.

Yep.

I agree.

Love to have in yawn.

Yes.

Some serious issues we've talked about, but they need talking about openly.

Absolutely.

Cliff, once again, thank you so much.

And we'd love to have you back and to share your thoughts.

We do want to thank our sponsors, our subscribers.

We do appreciate your continued support.

If you have any questions, comments, suggestions, you can reach us at mshappenings1 at
gmail.com.

That's mshappenings in the number 1 at gmail.

And as always, may we never be indifferent to the suffering of others.

Amen.